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Another name for PDA
  • Posts: 0
    Hi every one

    Just picking up on the prevouis post reading about the name PDA , i feel it is the wrong name for the condition . My feeling it should be change to "Newton syndrome" or maybe
    " High interpersonal awareness condition" for me its like being so aware of every ones esle perception/ point of view that you loose you own view or you end up devaluing your opinion as you can see the validness of the other perceptions before yourself . true and false is very differcult when the facts get lost when you are highly aware of need wishes and wants of others. its like a never ending steam of consoiusness , there is allways a bridge and connection to everything. and somtimes people feel half dead to me, like a part of their brain has no lights on. I allways believed i have far to much empathy for my own good. some people don't tread on ants

    workinggirl
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    Thats an interesting point, but I don't think Mark has any awareness of the perception of others and he certainly doesn't have the awareness of ither peoples needs that you talk about so this sort of description wouldnt be at all helpful for him.
  • Posts: 0
    i dont really understand how you can have PDA and Autism . My son aspergers syndrome has a lack of awareness of others and there perceptions , he only see he own point of view and is very focused on small part / detail rather than the bigger picture , he has a very limited social imagination and it very aware of facts over say personal meaning in contast my social imagation is to excessive it allows me to much insight, so i don't understand how a person could have PDA and Autism to me the condtions are polar.Carl Jung said thatsome people value the facts and some people value the meaning behind the facts to me PDA is a neurological condition
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    My son has a diagnosis of both autism and PDA and I strongly believe that both of these are correct and running a support service I do come across many children with a duel diagnosis,

    I have to say I am confused ...you said.....


    "for me its like being so aware of every ones esle perception/ point of view that you loose you own view or you end up devaluing your opinion as you can see the validness of the other perceptions before yourself . true and false is very differcult when the facts get lost when you are highly aware of need wishes and wants of others"


    I have yet to meet a child with PDA with empathy for anyone except themselves which of course makes managing the behaviours all the more difficult. So I'm struggling to see what you mean if I'm honest. My perception of what happens with demand avoidance is the child creates a worse case scenario around everyday situations that life expects of them, a scenario that convinces them that they cannot or should not do what is being asked of them, this being a scenario that would be harmful to them. While this could be perceived by some as being a lie, there is always an element of truth in each of these situations and I suppose in most cases each scenario could be true if it played out to its worst ending.

    Of course there are subtle differences with each PDA child, but I have to say I have never met a PDA parent who felt that their child was highly aware of need wishes and wants of others infact most seem exactly the opposite.
  • Posts: 0
    amanda

    Are you a person with autism maybe the problem it that you are not able to see that others have empathy as you have known of you own????

    how it it that we manlipute others?????
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    No hun I don't have autism.

    I don't think you have to have empathy to be able to manipulate as situation, more a drive and desire to protect yourself by getting someone else to do or say something for you.

    If I didn't have empathy I wouldn't be able to do the job I do as effectively as I do it.
  • Posts: 0
    amanda

    what is empanthy or i should ask what your denfinination of empathy is??????

    it just that i think you are an autistic person and maybe you are in denial of that fact??????

    sorry it just my ponit of view and i seem to of touch one of you nevres which is a good thing you know you grow from those things.

    I am aware thart many children who have autistic mothers have children with autism but due to this uusual relationship when both put themselves first it can seem like the child has PDA but infact it has more to do with the mother not being aware of the need of her autistic child than true PDA
  • I'm confused about your understanding of PDA workinggirl. My son has a duel diagnosis and I was categorically agree with Amanda that he show little or no ability to empathise with others. In fact that was the very first thing I was able to recognise in him. His primary obsession is to avoid demands being made of him, and demands always come from meeting the needs of others. I would disagree with you that Autism/Aspergers and PDA are polar. The lack of social imagination you describe your son as having (in fact you could be describing my son there too) is the very thing that underlies the demand avoidance. If you can't see the social implications of meeting the demand then where is the ability to empathise?!
    I too have a high ability to empathise with others and to see the bigger picture, often putting the needs of others above my own, and equally often this has been to my own detriment. But that comes from my experiences as a child where I 'learnt' that my needs weren't as important as other people's if I was to gain approval.
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    You are entitled to your opinion and I will respect that but this thread is bordering on insulting now and I won't continue to feed it.
  • Posts: 0
    Amanda i very soory if you feel i was insulting my intention of couse was to just avoid you demand and i am happy to let you ego have the last word
  • Posts: 0
    My perception of what happens with demand avoidance is the child creates a worse case scenario around everyday situations that life expects of them, a scenario that convinces them that they cannot or should not do what is being asked of them, this being a scenario that would be harmful to them. While this could be perceived by some as being a lie, there is always an element of truth in each of these situations and I suppose in most cases each scenario could be true if it played out to its worst ending.

    how does a autistic person work out theses scenarios??? my son AS does not have this type of social imagation my AS son is not able to see further than the hear and now infact his anxiety is more about his lack of working out future scenarios. i am a PDA person and yes this what i do i am able to see all the paths in the future i am very very imagative and when i think such a path will end up in being to much for me to cope with i then avoid the demand, becuase i believe you do not see this outcome. i just can not see how a autistic person has this insight into the future My son does not avoid demands based on scenarios in the future . He just follow his own want in the present this could seem that he is avoiding the demand but in fact he only care is his own wants at that moment as he is not aware of the give and take, he is single minded and unaware of others beliefs
    i think you are very riged on what you believe to be PDA maybe you don' t like the idear that a PDa person means you have no control and control is important to you
    but i am happy to agree that we disagree
  • MY son is diagnosed PDA and most definetely does not have empathy for other people, and he spends most of his time avoiding demands (must like Anoushja's son) and my son has traits of Aspergers but the condition causing most of the issues is PDA.
    "Pathological Demand Avoidance" does not trip off the tongue, and can cause confusion when typing abbreviation "PDA" into google etc (it finds those hand held computer thingies all the time!) but it does to me describe the main features of the condition....
  • mango69
    Posts: 967
    Phil Christie, the director of the Elizabeth Newson Centre agrees that there are shades of pda/autism and that people can have traits of both. The NAS believes that PDA is all part of autism. Workinggirl you are entitled to your opinion and healthy debates are good but some of your comments could be construed as insulting. If you are not aware, the comments I am referring to are:

    it just that i think you are an autistic person and maybe you are in denial of that fact??????



    and

    i am happy to let you ego have the last word



    Please try to remember that this site is primarily for parents and carers of children with PDA looking for support from others in the same situation as themselves.

    Margo
  • My son with PDA has lots of empathy - it is one of his great strengths, something people notice about him (even if they are unaware of his difficulties) and not solely in pursuit of avoiding demands either. He cannot/does not always choose to *act* in accordance with his empathic understanding of course (neither do I)

    If he hadn't had a well-developed social imagination, including empathy, we would never have resisted an autism diagnosis and gone to the Elizabeth Newsom Centre (but since of course the name doesn't change *him* I guess that at best it would have taken us (and others) a lot longer to work out some kind of workable underlying principle for dealing with him and meeting his needs (I think we as a family had realised that he liked change and being direct with him wasn't working well, despite his language difficulties but until we had a few people with expertise saying "This child is not autistic and it will not be helpful to treat him as such" it was hard for other professionals not to stick with what they knew ie odd kid therefore autistic therefore doesn't have empathy doesn't like change likes directness)

    The description of someone being so aware of what someone else might want (because very anxious about being expected to do what someone else wants) that they forget what they want does make sense to me. But this could be hyperviligance rather than empathy and include perceiving demands where there aren't really any (or at least the demand is only to decide what you want from a range of options including having all or none)
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    And Maybe that is exactly why there are many children with the duel diagnosis, interesting eh?!
  • MomofC
    Posts: 31
    My son, like dirtmother's son, has empathy too. He worries about what is fair for others, not just himself. He is very into stories and movies about people and their feelings. He is not able to put his empathy into practice when demands that make him anxious, and they can be very small demands, are put on him. He starts out stalling or finding excuses and he can sometimes end up to the point of a panic attack. When it gets this far he has a major melt down. He can also be overly sarcastic to the point of rude or impulsive with certain remarks that don't sound empathetic. It seems as though we have a similar story to dirtmother's. In preschool he was given a diagnosis of Aspergers, because we were aware of his inability to get off of his own agenda or switch gears and then he had some other things like sensory issues. The Aspergers diagnosis was later removed, because almost NONE of the programming for kids with Aspergers worked for him, and he was far too witty, sarcastic, and socially aware to be a kid with Aspergers. Many were astounded that he was ever labeled with it. I have a son and ex-husband with Aspergers. There are many on this site who say they have other kids with Aspergers or autism. That shows me that children with PDA often have siblings with Aspergers or autism. I would speculate that there is some kind of connection there. I work with kids with autism. I have learned that there is not always a perfect list of criteria for any diagnosis. PDD-NOS is proof enough. PDA is the best description I have found for my son, and I have spent hundreds of hours researching. I believe in dual diagnosis. The children who have autism are probably pretty different than my son. I do believe that the majority, if not all, of the parents on this forum are here, because the PDA symptoms are more than evident in their children with or without autism and with or without empathy. I trust their judgment. No diagnosis is perfect, but it certainly helps us understand our children.
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    Yes I agree and if I had to put Mark diagnosises in order PDA would definitely be first and foremost, although in our case the autism is evident too, especially with the help that Mark needs with social cues etc, I wouldn't say Mark is as socially aware as many of the 'just pda' kids I have met and he isn't loud and 'in your face' like many of the young people I have met. Again it stresses the importance of accepting there are differences between these children and of course the autistic spectrum makes that so with so many of our children.
  • MomofC
    Posts: 31
    I want to add that I am not saying kids with ASD are never witty, sarcastic, or socially aware. I am sometimes offended by the stereotypes given to all people with Aspergers, such as they have no sense of humor or empathy etc. I was doing my best to describe what makes my son with PDA not appear to have Aspergers. If anybody met him they would see what I mean within a few minutes. My son with PDA does have many social issues such as difficulty with socially appropriate behavior and more.
  • In my original post on the thread I was probably a bit "harsh" saying my son has no empathy. Indeed he can show a very caring side, like when he saw an infant school age boy outside the school gates on his own he took him in to teachers because he had been left behind on school trip! (another story in itself) and now he is older he is starting to think a bit more about others and be a bit more considerate as to what they want - maybe because he recognises now that if he wants friends he needs to be this way? He also wants to please us (his parents) and others and can try very hard as he hates it when we are upset with him. He also can be very kind to his brother (but also quite cruel at times, especially when he is interfering with his play or touching his things)

    I do not think that he is truly capable of climbing into someones shoes and understanding how they feel, which is one "definition" of empathy. I think his behaviour is learned to some degree - i.e. he says "sorry" when he has done something wrong but it is a learned response and I am not always sure he means it or does it because he knows its expected.
    Does that make sense???
    I wish I could walk in his shoes for a day and truly feel what it must be like for him...
  • MomofC
    Posts: 31
    westd

    Yes it makes sense!
  • Lixina
    Posts: 289
    I don't think autistic kids really lack empathy, just have a very different way of relating. A lot of the 'differences' I see described between demand avoidance syndrome and autism are based on ignoring features present in many autistics and only seeing them in those in whom it's most obvious. For example, many autistics are quite imaginative but are inaccurately thought not to be because of comprehension problems, dislike of change and lack of pretend play. Demand avoidant kids are often so extremely imaginative that it's obvious to everyone despite their autistic traits, and so they are said to be imaginative while other autistics aren't.
    For example, Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadyay, author of The Mind Tree, is a severely autistic person who writes to communicate. He didn't play pretend and he hated change, but if you read his fantasy (that his book, which contains an autobiography and several short stories, is named for) about the 'mind tree', a tree with a mind who watches and notices everything, there's no way he lacks imagination.
    As for lacking empathy, many autistics don't understand others very well, don't know how to show they care, and are so overwhelmed by coping with their own problems that they don't have the energy to give to others. The last is especially true of demand avoidant kids, because they're terrified of being controlled by other people and this takes precedence over showing that they care (I know, I have mild demand avoidance). I've heard some parents of children diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (which overlaps with demand avoidance syndrome a lot) say that their child will do kind things without being told, out of the goodness of their hearts, but will act incredibly nasty and selfish if you try to tell them what to do. And yes, kids like this will pick at what they know are your weak points, because it works, and in the heat of the moment, that's what matters. They often feel bad about it later on (although they may be afraid to admit they do).
  • MomofC
    Posts: 31
    Lixina,

    I have read several of your posts, and I really appreciate your insight.
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