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Consequences
  • angel child
    Posts: 215
    Can someone help please. I know everybody states that with children with PDA it's best to deal with the behaviour, give a consequence and then a draw a line underneath it and that consequences should be deal with immediatly but what is a fair consequence for a 9 year old completly taking the pee, going past the boundaries of the places you set that he can go to with his friends and coming back home some 2 and a half hours later.

    I need some advice, at the time I said he was grounded for a week, this initself may be a bit hard to achieve but I think he really needs to learn for this episode as he's not taking any notice of loosing his bike the following day as a consequence, please help :(
  • webbwebb
    Posts: 2,566
    Hi

    This is a very hard one to make suggestions on as punishments vary from child to child depending on what they do and what they like that we can use as a punishment.

    I do agree that consequences/punishments should be given and "served" the same day when ever possible, just like you said.

    My son is 14 but never goes out the house without an adult so maybe I'm not the best person to give you advice as our son's are quite different.

    If my son swears - he looses his pudding. Food is a great motivator for him to behave.

    They are all so different! What works for us is sticking to the punishment, no matter what the cost to us as his parents.

    I hope more people will reply to your post. It's really hard being the one who picks them up when they cry but the one who has to punish them when they step over the boundaries.

    Paula

    Paula
  • dirtmother
    Posts: 897
    Hmmm, dunno, my 9yo with PDA isn't allowed out on his own! My 10 yo (who does not have any disabilities) started being allowed out last Summer when he was 9, but he can tell the time, which his brother can't, he was provided with a mobile phone and we used a tracking device to make sure he went the route we told him (this is my husband's job so it wasn't difficult to organise - we used the tracking device on our younger child when he was doing a night hike with Cubs in a group, just in case he decided to run off)

    I think sometimes these things are a sign that that we've allowed a child more freedom than he or she is able to handle. Has he been able to go out with this particular group of friends frequently before and stick to the rules? I think a lot depends on your own knowledge of your own child but effectively I see these children as having a specific learning difficulty when it comes to adhering to rules and sometimes punishment/consequences for this kind of thing might be about as fair and effective as punishing a child for not being able to read or do sums consistently (not replacing something they have broken is a different more natural consequence)

    It is hard when you've been really worried about a child or put to a lot of hassle - but just as with any child there is a risk that if they know they will come home to anger if they realise they've overstepped the mark, it may just make the problem worse. I always found it more effective as a child when my father explained calmly that as he was a police officer he saw the rare occasions on which something did go very badly wrong, so that I could appreciate how he felt. I feel my own child with PDA responds quite well to an explanation of how his behaviour impacts on other poeple - provided it is a calm one (that's hard!) - and he may have to shout a rejection for a while which makes it seem as though he hasn't.

    Does it need to be a specified consequence at all? Do you just need to say no to him going out until *you* feel better about what has happened (I don't mean until you decide it was OK beahviour, clearly it wasn't!) and can feel confident that he is capable of making a genuine effort not to put you to unnecessary worry/himself in danger? You might be able to talk to him about what he thinks he can do towards this but I honestly feel that this is quite a challenge for a lot of children without PDA and that there will be slip-ups.

    Incidentally, when William is very angry with us he yells "You're grounded for a week" which is really weird as we never use that phrase. So he clearly thinks it makes a good threat or punishment!
  • Pounce
    Posts: 39
    My dd is only 6, but I can't ever visualise a time when she would ever be allowed out without an adult.

    Maybe it will come with time, but dd doesn't give a hoot about consequences. She just laughs at me and simply doesn't care.
  • angel child
    Posts: 215
    It may help if I explain things.

    From a very early age all the doors in our house need to be locked and windows everytime the door was opened as son would try to get out. Age 7 he was smashing windows to try and get out to play with other children, part of this was my own fault as I had allowed a roamer who was one year older to play in our garden daily and their friendship developed, this child started to play out more in the street so I allowed my son, many of the other children in our road play out as young as 5!! but my daughetr is 7 and I have only just let her play out the front!

    Suddenly son started pushing the bounadries of places I would allow him to go because the other child was doing it, when son was having respite sessions the worker would let him wander off and would sit in the car so son had somewhere to return back to, this has been more frequent, social services have said this was ok because worker said son works well on these terms and I have had no support put in place to help do it my way , our autistic worker had to go along with s/s because she wanted to find middle ground for me and worker to manage son as she said there were different rules in place which was confusing son, however I have spoken to her and told her off the difficulties and she has said we done it their way now they willhave to go along with what wa say. Since all this I had allowed son access to certain areas and it has not worked, usually he is with roamer child, they go to various different skate parks and they are both pretty carefull, stick together, come home at the correct time although if other youths are out still son challenges it to stay out with them. Son has knows another youth who is much older, this is the one he was with the other day, they were in school together although this child is now in resi school, when this son is home for weekends and if my son is at skate park and sees him my son will go off with him and leave roamer, this has now happened twice. I know my son needs supervising because mainly of the wandering off, set that aside and if he didn't wander then son would be I think ok with being out without supervision with all the other things in place, i.e. mobile phone, watch, plus a mum who checks up on him to see if he is where he is and i've made it a thing to get to know other youths at skate park so they all know who he is and who I am and can help me tellme when he was last seen if he has wandered off!!
    What I really need for him is a tracking device, that way if he overstepped the boundaires I would know immediatly and could deal with it immediatly, having said that though son is honest at the mo' of telling me when he has wandered off.
    I know I have allowed son far to much leeway as he has now had the freedom and enjoyed it and it's going to be doubly hard getting him back in and sticking to the boundaries. It's really hard cos my son although 9 comes across like a very streetwise older child, many of the other youths at skate park think he is 11/12 in many ways he comes across like that but other times he is like a 7 year old and he's still my baby and I worry like mad about him getting into wrong stuff at such a young age and obvioulsy coming to harm.

    Thanks for all the advice back and it has given me some ideas to look into especially some kind of tagging thing. Thanks again
  • Amanda
    Posts: 281
    Hi again it's difficult for me to give you my own experiences because Mark won't leave the house without someone with him.

    However of course with PDA we want as many positive experiences as possible and although it is important to be consistant I wonder if you could set him off thinking differently by negotiating him going out perhaps buying him a watch that he wears when he goes out, allowing him the opportunity to take responsibility like an adult for his timekeeping. Would this give him enough of the control to get him in when you want him do you think? Of course the watch can be sold as a responsibility and as such can be taken away if he continues to push boundaries. At least then he has a choice and after which you can then re-enforce the consequences.

    Sorry just thinking off the top of my head here but the concept can be used in many ways with many things to negotiate and hand back a portion of control so as not to turn a situation confrontational.

    Sorry if this doesnt make sense its early lol


    Mand
  • angel child
    Posts: 215
    Hi Mand, thanks for the reply. He has a watch and I set the alarm at two stages so one alarm goes off, then another 10 mins later and he then has about 10minutes to make it home on time but he doesn't always stick to this, when he doesn't take his watch with him I set the alarms up on his mobile phone, he generally doesn't like having the watch on his wrsit but will usually put it in his pocket. It is a great idea of taking it off him as a consequence though so he may learn that way.

    I have contacted NAS to see if they have any suggetsions on tracking device and have looked at dementai stuff but haven't found anything suitable yet.

    I really wnat to be able to give him the freedom because it has been really helping him develop social skills, he's got an interest and he's making friends, he's also getting exercise so it's helping with his sensory difficulties and at night time he is getting tired as he's been active all afternoon. In many ways it's positive, but weigh it up and it also brings a whole load of new problems.
  • Pounce
    Posts: 39
    DD and I saw an article on Newsround where they were testing a jacket with a built-in tracking system.

    Seems a bit daft (to me) as there is nothing stopping your child from removing the jacket and leaving it at a pals' house and then disappearing off out the door...

    Anyway, there are people out there giving it some thought....
  • dirtmother
    Posts: 897
    When we used it, our son didn't actually know, the device just went in his pocket. I suppose there's a whole debate about that!
  • angel child
    Posts: 215
    Hi Dirtmother, I actually think it's a fab idea and it's one that could also help alot of familis with dementia etc after all it's us who struggle when they have disappeared and we don't know where they are whilst the other person may be oblivious to the stress we are feeling.

    NAS sent me a link to a mobile phone type tracker thing but it's quite expensive and I do not think s/s would be willing to contribue to it.

    The outcome of our meeting was that today we continue with how things are going, allowing son out but putting some visuals in place that will show what the consequences are for certain bhaviours and doing a chart of places he can go without asking, places he can go with asking permisiion first and places he's not allowed to go, we shall see :lol:
  • dirtmother
    Posts: 897
    I asked my husband for links to the devices he'd come across through work:

    http://www.buddi.co.uk/index/
    http://www.retrievatracking.com/tracking_children.aspx
    http://www.gpsnanny.com/rs/halkudersr/products.html

    He says he has no idea if they are any good.
  • angel child
    Posts: 215
    Hi Dirtmother, thanks for those links, the first one loks fab, but very pricey, thanks again :lol:
  • Lixina
    Posts: 289
    As a person with partial PDA, I'd like to tell you some things from my perspective.
    Firstly, feeling powerless is probably the underlying reason for demand avoidance. The child is scared of being controlled by someone else.
    Giving the child choices as often as possible, and negotiating with the child (for example, see the method described in the book The Explosive Child) will probably reduce conflict a lot. If the rule is partly their own choice, they're more likely to obey it.
    To those parents who say their child doesn't care about consequences - very often I do care about consequences, but don't want to show it because that gives the other person power. So I pretend not to care. Your child might be doing the same.
    I don't know how many PDA kids are like this, but I am a dreamer, as described in the book Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer. These are imaginative, idealistic people who are very emotionally sensitive (when they're happy they're very happy, when they're sad they're in despair). These kids, if you give them a good reason for a rule (for example 'If you don't clean your room, bugs will start living in it') they'll do their best to obey, but if you don't give them a reason that makes sense (for example, if you say 'because I said so') they'll fight you tooth and nail. So if your kid fits that description, the best way to get obediance is to convince them that your rule makes sense.
  • webbwebb
    Posts: 2,566
    Hi Lixina

    Thanks for for giving your perspective.....I have gained a lot of understanding from it.
    I have been giving my son choices because I have been advised that this will help him and myself, now I understand why.
    Your advice on rules also makes a lot of sense and without understanding why it works I have been trying to find logical reasons for my son to obey house/hygiene rules.
    When he asks me "Why do I have to clean my teeth?" I've told him "because if you don't they go yellow-then black-then they hurt and the dentist has to take them out"
    Thanks for your insight into how people with PDA think.

    Paula
  • dirtmother
    Posts: 897
    We're finding choices a real challenge. It doesn't work *not* to give a choice (which is a strategy that works with some other children of course), but our son is really struggling with choices and accepting the consequences of not opting for one. Even if it really is neutral to us eg he yells "I don't want to go" "No problem, you can stay at home if you want" Meltdown. Says one thing, changes his mind at the last minute and distraught, changes his mind too late...

    My sense is that this is something he just has to get through with our understanding and support eg guidance where we think he might prefer one option over another deep down, empathising with his difficulty, hugs etc.
  • Pounce
    Posts: 39
    I have always given dd choices. I'd like to give some deep and meaningful reason for doing so, but I don't have one. It's just something that I have always done, presumably I learnt in the dim and distant past that life was easier to do so!

    She also responds well if you give a reason, as Lixina says. Again, I've always done this as to me it simply makes much more sense if you explain why something needs doing or a rule needs to be adhered to.

    I suspect at 6 she is too young to fully appreciate exactly what consequences are, although she is always told anyway, just in case!

    Lixina, it is very enlightening to hear things from your perspective. Thank you for sharing...
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